I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the lowest
cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for IFR
flying?

I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a FAQ
or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was just
hashed out.

thanks,
tom pettit

tom pettit <tompet<at>peak wrote:
> I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the lowest
> cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for IFR
> flying?

Maybe something in the Apollo GX50/55/60/65 series? You'll find, though, that
the cost of installation is a big part of making it IFR, so if you're going to
spend a lot on installation, it seems a shame to waste it on a cheap unit.

On 11/18/2005 13:28, tom pettit <tompet<at>peak wrote:

> I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the lowest
> cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for IFR
> flying?
>
> I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a FAQ
> or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was just
> hashed out.
>
> thanks,
> tom pettit
>
>

Keep in mind that it takes a specific unit (a TSO one forty something
rather than the TSO 129... I'm not sure I have those number correct) for
the GPS unit to be used as the sole means of IFR navigation.

I mention this, because you said your plane is not currently IFR
capable. In order to use one of the TSO 129 certified GPS units for
IFR flight, the plane must still have the navigation equipment on
board for the ground based navigation aids along the route of flight.

Does any of this apply to you?

If not, sorry if I misunderstood your situation.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:28:32 -0800, tom pettitpeak wrote:

> I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the lowest
> cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for IFR
> flying?

Wow, low cost and IFR equipment in the same sentence just doesn't compute.

With that in mind, I came across a Garmin dealer who was not making their
quota and managed to get a hold of a GNS 430 radio for 6K with brand new
warranty.

My ILS nor localizer will not work for this 430 so I now have to get a new
indicator. which is another 1.5K. Installation will be about 40 hours of
work which equates to 2.8K or so. This is just for one radio, one
indicator! My second radio will not be replaced at this time, to keep
costs down.

So..... if you only have a VFR equiped plane, this should get you a
baseline for what is ahead of you.

Allen

Dave Butler wrote On 11/18/05 13:57,:
> tom pettit <tompet<at>peak wrote:
>
>>I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the lowest
>>cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for IFR
>>flying?
>
>
> Maybe something in the Apollo GX50/55/60/65 series? You'll find, though, that
> the cost of installation is a big part of making it IFR, so if you're going to
> spend a lot on installation, it seems a shame to waste it on a cheap unit.

I went through this calculation way back in 2000 or so. I even had the advantage
of having a loran that would have had an upgradable pinout to the Apollo.
I went 430 and am happy with that decision. I doubt it would have saved any
real money in any case.

I don't currently have any navigation equipment. I was hoping that a
single, certified, gps unit could be used as primary, with an uncertified
unit as back up. I was hoping I didn't need anything else. Reading the
FARS it isn't very specific, or more likely, I just don't know enough about
this stuff yet.
thanks,
tom

"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
...
> On 11/18/2005 13:28, tom pettit <tompet<at>peak wrote:
>
>> I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the
>> lowest cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for
>> IFR flying?
>>
>> I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a
>> FAQ or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was
>> just hashed out.
>>
>> thanks,
>> tom pettit
>
> Keep in mind that it takes a specific unit (a TSO one forty something
> rather than the TSO 129... I'm not sure I have those number correct) for
> the GPS unit to be used as the sole means of IFR navigation.
>
> I mention this, because you said your plane is not currently IFR
> capable. In order to use one of the TSO 129 certified GPS units for
> IFR flight, the plane must still have the navigation equipment on
> board for the ground based navigation aids along the route of flight.
>
> Does any of this apply to you?
>
> If not, sorry if I misunderstood your situation.
>
>
> --
> Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
> Sacramento, CA

I have the GX55 in my Bonanza. They are approx $2K plus install. You
can install it either VFR only or IFR terminal/enroute. To be legal to
accept a direct clearance you will have to get it legal for
terminal/enroute. The GPS can be finnicky and it might cost hardly
anything up to a couple thousand to get it IFR legal. There are some
tests that the shop will run to make it legal, call any avionics shop
and they will tell you what is involved.

tom pettit <tompet<at>peak wrote:
> I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the lowest
> cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for IFR
> flying?
>
> I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a FAQ
> or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was just
> hashed out.
>
> thanks,
> tom pettit
>
>

tom pettit <tompet<at>peak wrote:

> I don't currently have any navigation equipment. I was hoping that a
> single, certified, gps unit could be used as primary, with an uncertified
> unit as back up. I was hoping I didn't need anything else. Reading the
> FARS it isn't very specific, or more likely, I just don't know enough about
> this stuff yet.

Any real IFR work without a navcomm isn't practical.

Since the bulk of the cost is installation the actual GPS unit you
select will not have a dramatic effect on end price. A GNS430 is about
$11,000 installed here. Any other GPS is + or - $1000 or so.

I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the lowest
cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for IFR
flying?

I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a FAQ
or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was just
hashed out.

thanks,
tom pettit

i bought a garmin 155 TSO ifr certified for $1000 on e-bay with certs, and installed it in my plane - an annunciator to link it to my HSI cost another ~$550 or so. i then got an LSTC for that unit from a DAR for $1000. with installation it ended up costing around $4,000.

the king 90B (or 89B) comes with a generic STC - so you can save yourself the cost of the LSTC. there's usually a few of those for sale on e-bay as well.

an IFR certified installation probably can't be done much under $3,500 by the time you add labour, paperwork, and required accessories such as a CDI or annunciator.

i hope that helps,

francois

On 11/18/05 4:28 PM, in article , "tom
pettit peakorg>" <tompet<atdot> wrote:

> I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the lowest
> cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for IFR
> flying?
>
> I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a FAQ
> or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was just
> hashed out.
>
> thanks,
> tom pettit
>
>
A tuna sandwich. :))
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

On 11/18/2005 3:43 PM, tom pettit <tompet<at>peak wrote:
> I don't currently have any navigation equipment. I was hoping that a
> single, certified, gps unit could be used as primary, with an uncertified
> unit as back up. I was hoping I didn't need anything else. Reading the
> FARS it isn't very specific, or more likely, I just don't know enough about
> this stuff yet.
> thanks,
> tom

Well, start with FAR 91.205. Specifically, 91.205 (d), and
91.205 (d) (2), where it state:

"...navigational equipment appropriate to the ground
facilities to be used".

Then, have a look at the AIM, in the section on Navigational Aids (section
1), specifically, 1-1-19 (d) (1), which talks about Authorization to conduct
any GPS operation under IFR, and later it talks about the requirements
for alternate navigation equipment.


Basically, what this all boils down to, is this: If you have a
IFR-certified GPS system (TSO-129 certified), like the Garmin
GNS 430, you can use it for IFR operations, but the plane needs
to be equipped with the typical IFR navigation radios anyway.

There are some exceptions, but this should get you thinking in the
right direction. I would expect that the GPS systems that can be
used without any other nav equipment on board would be more expensive
than a TSO-129 system + standard nav gear anyway.

I hope this helps,

>
> "Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 11/18/2005 13:28, tom pettit <tompet<at>peak wrote:
>>
>>> I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the
>>> lowest cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for
>>> IFR flying?
>>>
>>> I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a
>>> FAQ or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was
>>> just hashed out.
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>> tom pettit
>>
>> Keep in mind that it takes a specific unit (a TSO one forty something
>> rather than the TSO 129... I'm not sure I have those number correct) for
>> the GPS unit to be used as the sole means of IFR navigation.
>>
>> I mention this, because you said your plane is not currently IFR
>> capable. In order to use one of the TSO 129 certified GPS units for
>> IFR flight, the plane must still have the navigation equipment on
>> board for the ground based navigation aids along the route of flight.
>>
>> Does any of this apply to you?
>>
>> If not, sorry if I misunderstood your situation.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
>> Sacramento, CA
>
>


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> Since the bulk of the cost is installation the actual GPS unit you
> select will not have a dramatic effect on end price. A GNS430 is about
> $11,000 installed here. Any other GPS is + or - $1000 or so.

Not necessarily. The GX55 I had in my 182 and now in the Bonanza costs
nothing to install if you replaced a loran in the process and the loran
antenna was on top of the fuselage. The expense will be in getting it
legal for IFR. An terminal/enroute only box costs far less to get legal
than an approach box.

Tom,
Used Bendix King, Apollo, Or even Northstar if you can find it.
Like others have said the cost for installation is significant.
I installed a KLN-90B 10 years ago. At the time it had the most bells
and whistles out there and was the easiest to use. It was also the most
expensive. By today's standards it is dog meat. It has over 1000 hours
on it without a problem. Solid, reliable. You will also need a display
for annunciation's and a deviation indicator.
I chose an HSI switched between NAV 1 and the GPS. That lasted for 9
years and then I replaced it with and updated one.
Michelle

tom pettit <tompet<at>peak wrote:

>I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the lowest
>cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for IFR
>flying?
>
>I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a FAQ
>or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was just
>hashed out.
>
>thanks,
>tom pettit
>
>
>
>

So how come I can't just use the gps alone? It seems like it is much more
flexible, and then I wouldn't be as dependent on what ground based stuff was
available.
tom

> Basically, what this all boils down to, is this: If you have a
> IFR-certified GPS system (TSO-129 certified), like the Garmin
> GNS 430, you can use it for IFR operations, but the plane needs
> to be equipped with the typical IFR navigation radios anyway.

Because a GPS failure or outage can affect an entire REGION, while if a
single ground based navaid goes on the fritz, other stuff nearby will
likely still work.

Truth is, right now, the best approach minimums are with ground based
ILS equipment. Unless you have baro-VNAV capability (which is not in the
cheaper GPS equipment) the GPS approach may leave you in the clouds
while the "antiquated" precision approach equipment can get you to 200
feet and a mile.

Get some instrument training.. not the whole rating.. but some.. and see
what is out there. (I am presuming you dont have one, but that is just a
hunch)

Also, if you dont have a rating yet, and plan to train in your own
plane, you will need to be equipped for the checkride to perform 1 type
of precision approach and 2 types of non-precision approaches (unless
things have changed and I missed the memo). Having a "cheap ifr GPS" may
not even have approach capability. Those that currently do are likely
only LNAV (no glideslope, thus non-precision approach). Unless you have
a Precision Approach Radar site, or a VNAV (baro aided or WAAS) you will
need an ILS to meet the checkride requirements in that plane


Dave

tom pettit peak wrote:
> So how come I can't just use the gps alone? It seems like it is much more
> flexible, and then I wouldn't be as dependent on what ground based stuff was
> available.
> tom
>
>
>>Basically, what this all boils down to, is this: If you have a
>>IFR-certified GPS system (TSO-129 certified), like the Garmin
>>GNS 430, you can use it for IFR operations, but the plane needs
>>to be equipped with the typical IFR navigation radios anyway.
>
>
>

[QUOTE=tom pettit]So how come I can't just use the gps alone? It seems like it is much more
flexible, and then I wouldn't be as dependent on what ground based stuff was
available.
tom

-------------------------

you can do that - but forget about saving money. you would need the garmin 480 GPS which can be used as a sole-means-of-navigation device. be ready to fork out at least $15,000 by the time it's installed with all the required hardware and config though.

as per others on this thread, i question the wisdom of relying only on a GPS - for example, last time as i passed through richmond (KRIC) a notam said GPS signal may or may not be adequate for navigation. and just like the NOTAM said, we got a RAIM alert just before passing the FAF.

another time in albukerque, we were on final descent, navigating by GPS at night when the unit went dead (welll, not dead, but it gave a message of "no signal" or something similar). turns out there were some military exercises going on in the area that included jamming the GPS signal. that final leg made for some interesting scrambling in the cockpit looking for maps, beacons and frequencies to navigate "a la VHF" before we sailed past where we were going...

:-)

francois

"tom pettit" <tompet<at>peak<dot>org> wrote:

>So how come I can't just use the gps alone? It seems like it is much more
>flexible, and then I wouldn't be as dependent on what ground based stuff was
>available.
>tom

Your alternate must have a non-GPS approach (unless you use WAAS).

VORs and ILS will be here forever.

Ron Lee

The problem with the less expensive unit is that they require more
external hardware to install. The more expensive units (GNS530, etc)
are "all in one" IFR units. WIth the GX55 you need to install a remote
head, a remote signal light etc. When you're paying $120/hr for
avionics labor, it gets expensive real quick,

While there are numerous used boxes out there at low prices, you have to
consider that the installation is a big part of the total cost. Another
consideration is that the newer systems have more intuitive operating logic.
The newer systems (430/530/480) all incorporate com and VLOC/GS. The older
units required more wiring and usually a switch/annunciator box which drives
up the cost. The new integrated avionics are also lighter. I removed 11lb
by installing a 530/300XL instead of a 300XL/155 with all its switching
boxes and VLOC converter strung together with miles of wire. .

I did the avionics installation myself on my Helio. A picture of the Helio
panel is on Jay Honecks site
http://alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/MU-2%20Mike/N295H_Panel.jpg. Before
starting, you need to be sure that someone will sign off the installation
when you are done! It took a while because I was always waiting for more of
some wire or connector but it worked perfectly from the beginning. The
tools are often availible on ebay.

Mike
MU-2


"tom pettit peak org>" <tompet<atdot> wrote in message
...
> I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the
> lowest cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for
> IFR flying?
>
> I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a
> FAQ or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was
> just hashed out.
>
> thanks,
> tom pettit
>

So, the answer to my original question is a Garmin 480 at about $15K. Even
with the big Garmin, it looks like I could not do my training, nor take the
checkride. I would not fly IFR without some redundancy, so a conventional
system would be needed, too. The Val Avionics INS422 looks like a compact,
neat package for a simple system.

Thanks to all who responded with suggestions and ideas. As some of you
suspected, I'm not IFR trained. I do practice under the hood several times
a year in the event of an inadvertant IMC incursion. I don't know if I will
get my IFR or not since I fly for the fun of exploring and observing, and
there isn't much to see in the middle of a cloud. On the other hand, the
skill improvement of flying instruments is attractive, and on the mornings
when the fog is thick, it would be nice to be able to fly through the fog to
get up on top, instead of getting up at 3:00AM and taking off before the fog
forms.

Again, thanks for your inputs.
tom pettit


"clipclip" > wrote in message
...
>
> tom pettit Wrote:
>> So how come I can't just use the gps alone? It seems like it is much
>> more
>> flexible, and then I wouldn't be as dependent on what ground based
>> stuff was
>> available.
>> tom
>>
>> -------------------------
>>
>> you can do that - but forget about saving money. you would need the
>> garmin 480 GPS which can be used as a sole-means-of-navigation device.
>> be ready to fork out at least $15,000 by the time it's installed with
>> all the required hardware and config though.
>>
>> as per others on this thread, i question the wisdom of relying only on
>> a GPS - for example, last time as i passed through richmond (KRIC) a
>> notam said GPS signal may or may not be adequate for navigation. and
>> just like the NOTAM said, we got a RAIM alert just before passing the
>> FAF.
>>
>> another time in albukerque, we were on final descent, navigating by GPS
>> at night when the unit went dead (welll, not dead, but it gave a message
>> of "no signal" or something similar). turns out there were some military
>> exercises going on in the area that included jamming the GPS signal.
>> that final leg made for some interesting scrambling in the cockpit
>> looking for maps, beacons and frequencies to navigate "a la VHF" before
>> we sailed past where we were going...
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> francois
>
>
> --
> clipclip

"tom pettit" <tompet<at>peak<dot>org> wrote:

>So, the answer to my original question is a Garmin 480 at about $15K. Even
>with the big Garmin, it looks like I could not do my training, nor take the
>checkride. I would not fly IFR without some redundancy, so a conventional
>system would be needed, too. The Val Avionics INS422 looks like a compact,
>neat package for a simple system.
>
Why can't you train or do a checkride? I have a Garmin GNS 430. Did
all my IFR training and will take the checkride with it. absolutely
no other comm or nav avionics installed.

Ron Lee

Here is another one I wanted to mention: AC 90-94.

"Guidelines for Using GPS Equipment for IFR En Route &
Terminal Operations & for Nonprecision Instrument Approaches
(12/14/94) (AFS-820)"

You can find it here, if you're an AOPA member:

<http://www.aopa.org/members/files/ac/ac90-94.pdf>

On 11/18/2005 4:41 PM, Mark Hansen wrote:

> On 11/18/2005 3:43 PM, tom pettit <tompet<at>peak wrote:
>> I don't currently have any navigation equipment. I was hoping that a
>> single, certified, gps unit could be used as primary, with an uncertified
>> unit as back up. I was hoping I didn't need anything else. Reading the
>> FARS it isn't very specific, or more likely, I just don't know enough about
>> this stuff yet.
>> thanks,
>> tom
>
> Well, start with FAR 91.205. Specifically, 91.205 (d), and
> 91.205 (d) (2), where it state:
>
> "...navigational equipment appropriate to the ground
> facilities to be used".
>
> Then, have a look at the AIM, in the section on Navigational Aids (section
> 1), specifically, 1-1-19 (d) (1), which talks about Authorization to conduct
> any GPS operation under IFR, and later it talks about the requirements
> for alternate navigation equipment.
>
>
> Basically, what this all boils down to, is this: If you have a
> IFR-certified GPS system (TSO-129 certified), like the Garmin
> GNS 430, you can use it for IFR operations, but the plane needs
> to be equipped with the typical IFR navigation radios anyway.
>
> There are some exceptions, but this should get you thinking in the
> right direction. I would expect that the GPS systems that can be
> used without any other nav equipment on board would be more expensive
> than a TSO-129 system + standard nav gear anyway.
>
> I hope this helps,
>
>>
>> "Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On 11/18/2005 13:28, tom pettit <tompet<at>peak wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the
>>>> lowest cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for
>>>> IFR flying?
>>>>
>>>> I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a
>>>> FAQ or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was
>>>> just hashed out.
>>>>
>>>> thanks,
>>>> tom pettit
>>>
>>> Keep in mind that it takes a specific unit (a TSO one forty something
>>> rather than the TSO 129... I'm not sure I have those number correct) for
>>> the GPS unit to be used as the sole means of IFR navigation.
>>>
>>> I mention this, because you said your plane is not currently IFR
>>> capable. In order to use one of the TSO 129 certified GPS units for
>>> IFR flight, the plane must still have the navigation equipment on
>>> board for the ground based navigation aids along the route of flight.
>>>
>>> Does any of this apply to you?
>>>
>>> If not, sorry if I misunderstood your situation.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
>>> Sacramento, CA
>>
>>
>
>


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

On 11/19/2005 8:39 AM, tom pettit <tompet<at>peak wrote:

> So, the answer to my original question is a Garmin 480 at about $15K. Even
> with the big Garmin, it looks like I could not do my training, nor take the
> checkride. I would not fly IFR without some redundancy, so a conventional
> system would be needed, too. The Val Avionics INS422 looks like a compact,
> neat package for a simple system.
>
> Thanks to all who responded with suggestions and ideas. As some of you
> suspected, I'm not IFR trained. I do practice under the hood several times
> a year in the event of an inadvertant IMC incursion. I don't know if I will
> get my IFR or not since I fly for the fun of exploring and observing, and
> there isn't much to see in the middle of a cloud. On the other hand, the
> skill improvement of flying instruments is attractive, and on the mornings
> when the fog is thick, it would be nice to be able to fly through the fog to
> get up on top, instead of getting up at 3:00AM and taking off before the fog
> forms.

If you're talking about fog, as in clouds that go all the way to the
surface...

As an instrument rated part 91 operator, it would technically be legal
for you to take off in zero visibility, but consider what you would do
if you were forced back to the ground (such as a power failure, or
unhappy passenger, etc.) - how would you land?

Each pilot has to decide for him/herself where their personal minimums
are. Taking off in zero visibility is below mine ;-)

You'll cover these and other issue during your training.


>
> Again, thanks for your inputs.
> tom pettit
>
>
> "clipclip" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> tom pettit Wrote:
>>> So how come I can't just use the gps alone? It seems like it is much
>>> more
>>> flexible, and then I wouldn't be as dependent on what ground based
>>> stuff was
>>> available.
>>> tom
>>>
>>> -------------------------
>>>
>>> you can do that - but forget about saving money. you would need the
>>> garmin 480 GPS which can be used as a sole-means-of-navigation device.
>>> be ready to fork out at least $15,000 by the time it's installed with
>>> all the required hardware and config though.
>>>
>>> as per others on this thread, i question the wisdom of relying only on
>>> a GPS - for example, last time as i passed through richmond (KRIC) a
>>> notam said GPS signal may or may not be adequate for navigation. and
>>> just like the NOTAM said, we got a RAIM alert just before passing the
>>> FAF.
>>>
>>> another time in albukerque, we were on final descent, navigating by GPS
>>> at night when the unit went dead (welll, not dead, but it gave a message
>>> of "no signal" or something similar). turns out there were some military
>>> exercises going on in the area that included jamming the GPS signal.
>>> that final leg made for some interesting scrambling in the cockpit
>>> looking for maps, beacons and frequencies to navigate "a la VHF" before
>>> we sailed past where we were going...
>>>
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> francois
>>
>>
>> --
>> clipclip
>
>


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

No, a 430 would meet your requrements too.

Mike
MU-2


"tom pettit peak org>" <tompet<atdot> wrote in message
news:o42dndElh4vSyOLenZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@scnresearch. com...
> So, the answer to my original question is a Garmin 480 at about $15K.
> Even with the big Garmin, it looks like I could not do my training, nor
> take the checkride. I would not fly IFR without some redundancy, so a
> conventional system would be needed, too. The Val Avionics INS422 looks
> like a compact, neat package for a simple system.
>
> Thanks to all who responded with suggestions and ideas. As some of you
> suspected, I'm not IFR trained. I do practice under the hood several
> times a year in the event of an inadvertant IMC incursion. I don't know
> if I will get my IFR or not since I fly for the fun of exploring and
> observing, and there isn't much to see in the middle of a cloud. On the
> other hand, the skill improvement of flying instruments is attractive, and
> on the mornings when the fog is thick, it would be nice to be able to fly
> through the fog to get up on top, instead of getting up at 3:00AM and
> taking off before the fog forms.
>
> Again, thanks for your inputs.
> tom pettit
>
>
> "clipclip" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> tom pettit Wrote:
>>> So how come I can't just use the gps alone? It seems like it is much
>>> more
>>> flexible, and then I wouldn't be as dependent on what ground based
>>> stuff was
>>> available.
>>> tom
>>>
>>> -------------------------
>>>
>>> you can do that - but forget about saving money. you would need the
>>> garmin 480 GPS which can be used as a sole-means-of-navigation device.
>>> be ready to fork out at least $15,000 by the time it's installed with
>>> all the required hardware and config though.
>>>
>>> as per others on this thread, i question the wisdom of relying only on
>>> a GPS - for example, last time as i passed through richmond (KRIC) a
>>> notam said GPS signal may or may not be adequate for navigation. and
>>> just like the NOTAM said, we got a RAIM alert just before passing the
>>> FAF.
>>>
>>> another time in albukerque, we were on final descent, navigating by GPS
>>> at night when the unit went dead (welll, not dead, but it gave a message
>>> of "no signal" or something similar). turns out there were some military
>>> exercises going on in the area that included jamming the GPS signal.
>>> that final leg made for some interesting scrambling in the cockpit
>>> looking for maps, beacons and frequencies to navigate "a la VHF" before
>>> we sailed past where we were going...
>>>
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> francois
>>
>>
>> --
>> clipclip
>
>

tom pettit <tompet<at>peak wrote:
> So, the answer to my original question is a Garmin 480 at about $15K. Even
> with the big Garmin, it looks like I could not do my training, nor take the
> checkride. I would not fly IFR without some redundancy, so a conventional
> system would be needed, too.

The GNS480 and also the 430 and 530 and probably others have integrated
ground-based navigation, so you can do an ILS for example with just the one box.
You can do both precision and non-precision approaches with just one box. I
think that's all you need for training and certification, leaving aside the
question of whether you want redundancy.

> On the other hand, the
> skill improvement of flying instruments is attractive, and on the mornings
> when the fog is thick, it would be nice to be able to fly through the fog to
> get up on top, instead of getting up at 3:00AM and taking off before the fog
> forms.

You have the right idea. I predict you'll be going for the rating before long.
You won't be sorry.

I put a used GX50 IFR certified in my 172 for the following cost:

Used GX50 with antenna at OSH 2 years back $1800
New Mid-Continent CDI with annuciators: $795
New Sandia Mode C encoder with serializer $350
Installation labor, sign-off, flight test $1350
Factory repair of used GX50 $450

Total: $4745 (plus misc shipping charges)


"tom pettit peak org>" <tompet<atdot> wrote in message
...
> I'm currently flying VFR in a vfr equipped plane. What would be the
> lowest cost GPS based instrument system I could install and be legal for
> IFR flying?
>
> I looked through the last six months of this newsgroup, but didn't see a
> FAQ or the answer to the above, so I hope it won't be something that was
> just hashed out.
>
> thanks,
> tom pettit
>
>